http://shkrobius.livejournal.com/211609.html?thread=1347737#t1347737 (edited)
S. I admit that I do not know why political theory is one of the last remaining strongholds of "mathematical" line of thought. Perhaps it deeply accords with our intuitions about what a political theory is supposed to be.
D. а вам не кажется, что там существует спектр возможностей - от полной интуитивности и субьективности при отсутствии всякой стабильной рациональной основы - до полной догматичности абсолютной теории, которая не обращает внимания на реальность?
S. As a possibility, yes. In practice, no. On their own force, the theories would march to their respective extremes.
D. т.е. вы считаете, что в самих теориях содержится нечто, что с необходимостью толкает их к догматизму. Что же именно? И почему консервативные теории не стремятся к противоположному, столь же опасному волюнтаризму?
S. The internal logic of these theories. The conservative theories are self-defeating. Let me be more precise. There is poetry and there is theory of poetry. Does excellent knowledge of the theory of poetry make one a great poet? It does not. A better poet? Doubtful. Any kind of poet? Perhaps, but only by coincidence. Yet it cannot be denied that poetry can be theorized about and such theories can be useful if only to understand and appreciate poetry. Theory of poetry does not aim at producing better poetry, it seeks understanding what poetry is. Burkean conservatism is of this kind. It does not aim at forcing the civil society into a particular shape. It aims at preserving it so it can shape itself. Conservative thinking is about the means of such preservation. This thinking arrives at many of the tools of classical liberalism (that preceded this thinking, culminating the entire Enlightenment) but from a different perspective, without idolizing these tools. Again, think of a conservative politician, like Churchill. He operated not on any particular political theory but on his love of British civil society, the very civility and freedoms of it, and the desire to preserve it. He did not search for his ideal up in the sky; his ideal was right there, it was palpable. He felt it as strongly in peace time as in war time. He did not worry whether he was a statist or a libertarian. He was worrying about preserving England in the state when someone may occupy oneself with such concerns. This is inherently the matter of judgment which no theory can replace or guide, like theory of poetry cannot guide writing great poetry. If it does, I do not want such a theory and the kind of poetry that results from it.
D. Вы предпочитаете поэзию теории поэзии. Я тут с вами. Я вообще ненавижу теорию поэзии, поскольку несколько лет ею занимался. И вы определяете консерватизм как любовь к поэзии, а либерализм, как теорию поэзии. Однако когда дело касается, к примеру, физической реальности, любовь к ней заменить теории не может. Действия, практика - в случае физической реальности опираются на теорию, а не на любовь. И иногда теория довольно далеко отходит от непосредственного любовного контакта - и часто ему противоречит. Вопрос в том, на что больше похожа общественная жизнь, общество - на поэзию или на физическую реальность.
Вообще же в этом вопросе лучше всего работать на примерах, на конкретных примерах - привести какую-то проблемную ситуацию, показать, как на нее реагируют консерваторы, как либералы. А вы, мне кажется, теоретизируете, возводите ваше деление к математическому мышлению, выстраиваете ригидную классификацию - т.е. грешите именно тем, против чего предостерегаете.
S. Excellent point and well deserved criticism - except that we already had such a discussion:
http://dennett.livejournal.com/233214.html?thread=7657726#t7657726 (edited for brevity)
D. следует ли здравоохранение причислить к упомянутым в Декларации независимости правам - на жизнь, свободу и стремление к счастью - и усматаривать за правительством необходимую функцию обеспечения этого права? Или же здравохранение нужно считать привилегией - и получение его зависящим от материального благополучия, места рождения итд. Вопрос о праве-привилегии в своей абстрактной форме от технических деталей не зависит - а зависти от того, насколько самоочевидными являются некоторые истины.
A. Правом. Для цивилизованного общества так же унизительно отказывать людям в медицинской помощи, как и в еде или крове. Представим себе, что мы живем в цивилизованной и благополучной стране. Если мы узнаем, что в соседнем квартале человек умер от голода, мы не можем не почувствовать себя неловко - он мог быть спасен с минимальным материальным ущербом для всех нас. Но если он умер от инсульта, мы почему-то не чувствуем себя виноватыми, тогда как он мог быть спасен, если бы регулярно принимал недорогие лекарства, что ненамного дороже пищи. Парадоксальным образом, после инсульта его везут в больницу и пытаются спасти гораздо более дорогостоящими, но уже бесполезными средствами, потому что в эту минуту наш позор наиболее нагляден.
D. позор и право - это все же разные вещи. я могу назвать то, как мой сосед воспитывает своих детей позором, но отобрать у него этих детей я не могу. Он теряет право на них не из-за позора, а из-за перехода через некую запретную черту.
S. There is no paradox. This comes straight from the Mosaic Law. If a person is in mortal peril, the law of compassion commands us to help this person. Everything shall be done to save the life of this person without regard to property rights. You cannot protest this action, stop it, or demand compensation afterwards. But if this person's life is not in the immediate, mortal peril, one still has the moral obligation to assist this person, but only through one's own charity. One cannot dispense of the others' property without their explicit consent and retribution of the owner's whose property was used is due. This is the crucial difference between the two situations.
Translating this into the language of natural rights (as it is understood in classical liberalism - S>), the only unalienable natural right is to the immediate medical assistance in a critical situation. Regular medical assistance is a privilege in this sense, as otherwise it would impinge on the unalienable natural right to property. People have absolute moral obligation to help the sick - A. is absolutely correct. But the sick have no natural right to be assisted through unconsented use of someone else's property until they are in a life-or-death situation. This truth is "self-evident" in the same sense that other natural rights are self-evident: these are the evident conclusions from the application of the doctrine of natural rights to the Mosaic Law. Locke explicitly held that one's rights of self-control are limited by our obligation to provide aid to others when the aid is necessary for their basic survival (that's in his Second Treatise of Government; the Lockean Proviso).
D. существует ли что-нибудь, кроме жизни-смерти, что может пересилить право собственности? Большинство участвующих в дискуссии говорят, что есть. Судя по всему, отношение к собственности сильно изменилось со времен Моисея.
S. Had it? You introduce your question in a very weak, dilute form, when people will answer in the expected way (it is implicitly assumed that providing health benefits to everyone would be no more than inconvenience). But unalienable natural rights mentioned above are absolute. The Mosaic law also assumes its form on the assumption of the absoluteness of its commandments. The question, then, is different: suppose someone is sick and has unalienable natural right to medical assistance. Does it mean that anyone, if necessary, can command all of your property without compensation to assist this sick person if this person's life is not immediate peril? Would you ask your question in this form, you would be treated to rather different arguments and reasoning from the one you've heard so far. The same people that asserted that such a right necessarily exists would insert all kinds of restricitions and provisions to reassert their endangered property rights. You will find that the only incontrovertible situation would be the life-and-death situation. So this right is viewed not as a natural right, contrary to their claims, but as Burkean convention: the norms of civil society deciding what part of one's property can be commandeered to provide assistance to the others in certain situations.
D. не думаю, что понятие права надо подвергать такому тесту. этого теста не выдержит даже право на свободу. большинство не отдаст (и не отдает) всю свою собственность за свободу корейского народа - и при этом право людей на свободу принимается без возражений. Если право на свободу сомнительно, возьмем само право на собственность - оно, согласно вашим же аргументам, является абсолютным, самоочевидным и естественным - и при этом за это право корейцев большинство ничем пожертвовать не готово.
S. <"We the people..." is not inclusive of the Koreans. Protecting natural rights of other nations is not the scope of the US Declaration of Independence.> The argument I gave above was liberal argument. Now, let's examine the conservative argument.
In denying... false claims of right, I do not mean to injure those which are real, and are such as their pretended rights would totally destroy. If civil society be made for the advantage of man, all the advantages for which it is made become his right. It is an institution of beneficence; and law itself is only beneficence acting by a rule. Men have a right to live by that rule; they have a right to do justice, as between their fellows, whether their fellows are in public function or in ordinary occupation. They have a right to the fruits of their industry and to the means of making their industry fruitful. They have a right to the acquisitions of their parents, to the nourishment and improvement of their offspring, to instruction in life, and to consolation in death. Whatever each man can separately do, without trespassing upon others, he has a right to do for himself; and he has a right to a fair portion of all which society, with all its combinations of skill and force, can do in his favor. In this partnership all men have equal rights, but not to equal things. He that has but five shillings in the partnership has as good a right to it as he that has five hundred pounds has to his larger proportion. But he has not a right to an equal dividend in the product of the joint stock... (Burke)
Burke dispenses with Lockean notion of "self-evident" natural rights. These are self-evident in only one respect: What benefits a man in a civil society is his right, period. From this standpoint, medical assistance is everyone's right and nobody can deny that; there is no subject of discussion here. However, this right does not translate into the obligation of dividing such assistance equally. The realization of this right is left to the individual, to the same degree the realization of property rights is individual. The state protects the rights to what has been (sic!) gained. The universal health coverage cannot be demanded as one's right. However, if it is introduced by consensus, then demanding such coverage is everyone's right that must be guaranteed by the state. If there is no such binding consensus, there is no such "natural right".
A. Burke's argument about convention sounds reasonable except where it breaks down: slavery was one obvious instance. One can always tweak the definition of civil society.
S. Slavery is indeed the case in point: proclaiming something unalienable natural right provides no guarantee to equal access to this right unless there exists consensus that such an access should be equal. I think that framing the problem as the dilemma of rights vs. privileges is only confusing the issue, which is precisely building such consensus.
D. Тут надо разобраться с самим понятием права. Для этого надо точно определить ситуацию, в которой это понятие необходимо. Это ситуация КОНФЛИКТА ИНТЕРЕСОВ. Понятие права возникает и используется для разрешения конфликтов интересов. Если имеет место конфликт, но у одного из участников есть право, то второй участник уступает. Именно поэтому право одного необходимым образом связано с обязанностями всех других. Бурк же в качестве типовой ситуации рассматривает БЕСКОНФЛИКТНУЮ ситуацию. Это очень хорошо видно из следующей его фразы
Whatever each man can separately do, without trespassing upon others, he has a right to do for himself. Необходимость понятия права изнчально нужна для того, чтобы оградить участников от необходимости защищаться против силы. Без этого понятия система компромиссов между сильными и слабыми не работает - а эта система есть основа общественной жизни.
S. Burke argued that the French did not have "natural right" to depose their king, whereas the Americans had the right to rebel against the Crown. These are not conflict-less situations. What Burke tells is that everything inherently beneficial is a natural right. However, providing on this right is a matter of convention. A US citizen has the right to liberty. This does not mean that the US has obligation to start an all-out war with another country detaining one of its citizens. The adequate response is determined by convention rather than having the right. What makes certain rights special is not that these are "natural" (though these are, as these are beneficial by nature, see above) but that there is consensus in the civil society that such rights have to be met absolutely. If there is no such consensus, the right does not have this special status. In other words, the self-evident truth means this wide consensus + natural beneficience. Burke gave good and honest answer.
D. что такое trespassing? что тут имеет в виду Бурк? зачем он вводит это условие?
S. The emphasis is on "separately" rather than "trespassing". Whatever you do alone, you have the right to do it for yourself. It may look weird (because you think of the Jeffersonian formula that the rights do not go further than when these impinge on other's liberties), but Burke was preoccupied with different matters:
Do people have liberty to worship whatever they wish or they are obligated to follow state religion? Since worship is something one can do separately, freedom of worship is one's indisputable and unrestrained right. If you can have your property separately from the others, it is your unquestionable right. For anything else "the remote and efficient cause is the consent of the people, either actual or implied, and this consent is absolutely essential." There are things people cannot be asked to consent to and laws cannot regulate that sphere without being unjust. This sphere is what one can do separately from the others. It is important qualification, because Burke grounds natural rights in beneficience. But what if someone decides that your worship is maleficient? Burke says that nobody can decide that. In matters concerning the individual alone, this beneficience is decided by the individual. Burke is not Jefferson, Priestley, or Paine; his view was that unalienable natural rights do exist, but the government is not founded from these natural rights. My point was that to anyone subscribing to this view of natural rights, your question is rather meaningless. Yes, it is natural right. No, the government is not obliged to provide equity in this right if there is no consensus in the civil society that it shall.
D. Мне кажется, тут вы очевидно неправы. Вообразим, что все кроме меня люди на земле умерли. Я один остался. Вместе с этим событием потеряли смысл все права. Для отдельного одинокого человека это понятие теряет смысл. Пример с собственностью - и это общее место всей правовой литературы - мое право владения чем-либо одновременно есть обязанности всех остальных людей не нарушать, не отбирать, признавать. Даже если кто-то хочет и очень хочет, даже если он жить без моей машины или картины не может, он обязан соблюдать мою собственноть. Если у меня есть право это означает, что окружающие должны соблюдать его. Их долженствование и мое право не есть даже причинно-обусловленные вещи - это одно и тоже.
S. For Burke, the unity of rights and obligations is split: metaphysical rights derive from nature, the actual rights and obligations derive through convention. What you talk about is the liberal concept of natural rights. Burke's concept is conservative. His "natural rights" are the benefits of peaceful living excluding the rights of political power. He does not consider an isolated person; rather, he considers isolated acts of individual beneficience. Can I possess something in isolation? Then, possessing things is my right; I know what benefits me. Such rights cannot be changed in a legitimate way. Then he considers what other rights cannot be changed. The liberal view of natural rights is law emerging in the state of primordial, anarchic nature. Burke's "state of nature" is the retrogressive stage of a civil society in its decline. There is no other "nature" in the context of the actual rights. Natural rights are viewed accordingly. You view your question as something that, if resolved, must lead to practical consequences. From the position of the classical conservatism, this is not the case. From the position of the classical liberal theory of natural rights, this is indeed the case, but in that theory universal medical care provided by the government through taxation it is not a natural right but a privilege.
SW: Could you comment more on D's arguments?
S: I believe that rights of self-ownership are limited by an obligation to provide aid when it is necessary for basic survival. This is the common ground between Burke and Locke. If the state taxes me to support emergency care, I do not see this as infringement of my rights. If it taxes me to provide nonemergency care, they need my full and explicit consent. This division comes from the Mosaic Law that establishes the limits of coercion for assisting the others. It is all-important question of my faith: can people be forced to do good by force? Naturally, when people reject the Mosaic law as the foundation of their civil life, this line can be drawn anywhere and any answer can be given to the latter question. If people relapse to the primeval belief that good will emerge from using force rather than charity, I can only regret that 3500 years of ethical teaching and reasoning went down the tube.
I consider the demands of universal medical care from the government insincere and even hypocritical. If you believe that it is everyone's moral duty to provide health care for all, what is stopping you to do it today, now? Why should the government be involved in what is supposed to be one's moral obligation? Organize the charity aiming at such coverage and/or make charitable donations to the existing charities and provide this coverage to the needy. Persuade the others that not making donations to this charitable fund is socially inacceptable. If you cannot help everyone, help 1/2, if you cannot help 1/2, help 1/3. But do not require that the government delivers by coercion what you yourself are unwilling to provide through your own charity. Using the state as a coercive force to win the argument that cannot be won otherwise is not acceptable. One's moral obligations are not met by extorting money from the others using the repressive machinery of the modern state.
SW: For me, a historical question remains: what the authors of the Declaration of Independence had in mind? It seems that if taken in isolation, it admits D's interpretation. On the other hand, this interpretation seems to contradict the 10th Amendment.
S. I do not view the past as the moment of revelation to be treasured and endlessly revisited. This is what left-leaning people think conservatism is about. It is not. The lesson of the past is different: that nothing changes. The same battle has been fought again and again. The strength of the conservatism is in realization of this very fact and learning from it. The weakness of radicalism is in denying it. The radicals believe that this time it will be different and so they invent a new way of getting back to the square one. The Declaration would not fight your battle for you.
Figuring out what the Founding Fathers had in mind 200+ years ago is the approach leading nowhere, as it assumes the uniform and coherent view where there was none. They had different things in mind; they were like us. Madison and Jefferson differed on more issues than you and D. The divisions that divide America today already divided the Founding Fathers. It goes all the way back. What I get from the historical perspective is that this very battle has been fought in every generation and it goes back to the Reformation and before.
returning back
S. Let's look at this discussion again. It was your thinking that was "mathematical". You wanted only to know whether X is a privilege or a right because if X is a right then it is the duty of the government to protect this right. Whether the civil society agrees or disagrees on X was considered irrelevant; once something is declared to be one's natural right; this right was thought of in the absolute terms. Public opinion, the actual ability of the to deliver, etc. did not matter. It was I who told that the actual realization of this right can only be implemented through seeking consensus rather than labeling something "right" or "privilege." You reduced the situation to the one in which a theoretical structure authomatically leads X to become the norm. Tellingly, the only counter-argument your libertarian opponents were able to furnish was that X is a privilege: their thinking relied on exactly the same logical structure. If this is not "mathematical" reasoning, I do not know what is. The very dilemma makes sense only if you have this kind of reasoning. From my perspective, both positions are attempts to bypass the civil society in order to further one's agenda. Instead of persuation, arguments, analysis and thoughtful observation the problem is reduced to abstractions, with both sides claiming that their reduction of X is correct and the shared conviction that once this reduction is made the opposing view can be ignored. The real life with its pains and everyday concerns is reduced to an abstract proposition. That discussion was the exact replay of Burke's famous essay, and his considerations on precisely this question (rights or privileges?) was the point of departure for conservative thinking.
Politics is not people deciding "yes" or "no" and inserting their decision into a slot of the perfect machine working with mathematical precision and showering liberties and cosmic serenity from the rear end. There is no such a machine, there are only people.
D. Мне кажется, тут вы совсем неправы. Вы даже проблему видите неправильно.
Вообразите подход к политике совершенно лишенный рациональности, не основанный ни на каких теориях и ни на какой логике - вообразите людей, пораженных полным отсутствием логики и абстрактного мышления в политике - и вы увидите, что это гораздо хуже, чем все, что основано на использовании математического подхода. Вот к примеру - фашизм...
Мне кажется, хорошая, правильная политика только выигрывает от НАЛИЧИЯ В ЕЕ РАСПОРЯЖЕНИИ до конца продуманных теорий - и совершенно в этом отношении непохожа на поэзию. Еще раз - устройте мысленный эксперимент - уберите все поэтические теории - и поэзия станет от этого только лучше. Уберите же все политические, философские и этические теории - и политика опустится до дикарского состояния, не в силах легимитизировать свои основные принципы и опираясь на инстинкт и волюнтаризм. В политике конечно существует момент неправильного, догматического применения теорий - как существует он в любом деле, имеющем отношение к реальности - однако настаивать, как это делаете вы, на вредности самих теорий, на ненужности их продумывать до конца, на ненужности рациональности - это довольно примитивная ошибка, в которую вас завлек, мне кажется, критический порыв и увлечение консервативной традицией.
И еще одно - мне кажется, в своем изложении наших бесед, вы поторопились - не выяснив мою позицию, вы изложили ее с искажениями, использовав как жупел для демонстрации заранее существущих выводов и обрезав ненужный вам хвостик беседы. Я - прагматик, но с идеей корректных ориентиров - тогда как вы представили (или представляете) меня догматиком. мне гораздо больше пользы принесла защита взглядов собеседника - и уж точно - полное уяснения оных, с подтверждением от него, что я понимаю его правильно - нежели настойчивое продалбливание своих собственных взглядов.
(I apologize to D. for any possible distortion of his views; the full discussion can be found by following the threads. I was strongly tempted indeed as the topic and discussion exactly paralleled the arguments in "Reflections on the Revolution in France"
http://www.constitution.org/eb/rev_fran.htm)